Tadros: The impact of the Church of Alexandria on early Christianity cannot be overstated. It was in Alexandria that Christianity encountered philosophy and developed its theological responses. Early Church fathers such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen played an instrumental role in that regard. It was also in Egypt that monasticism was first born at the hands of Saint Anthony the Great. St. Athanasius’ book on St. Anthony’s life, which he wrote while in exile in Europe, helped spread the idea of monasticism in the West. The most important contribution was however in terms of defining what Christianity itself meant. First St. Athanasius in Nicaea and later St. Cyril in Ephesus helped shape our understanding of the Trinity and the nature of Christ and protect Christian faith from heresies.
Venn Institute: Throughout the book you explained how Copts have taken queues from various church leaders impacting either their withdrawal or engagement with Egyptian society and political life. How do you see the current Pope Tawadros II’s words and actions impacting Copt’s participation in Egypt today?
Tadros: The Pope is an Egyptian nationalist. Like many if not all of his predecessors he views the Coptic Church as the Church of Egypt. Egypt has not only been the land in which the Church developed and stood but has come to shape the church’s very identity. As such, the Pope has not shied away from taking active positions in Egyptian politics. He, like other religious leaders and non Islamist political figures, gave his support for the military coup. He has encouraged Coptic participation in elections and in playing an active role in their country’s future. Naturally his visible support for the coup has angered Islamists, who have portrayed the coup as a Christian conspiracy against Islam.
Venn Institute: An important concept you explained is how in several major time frames Egyptian history has been revised to portray a unity and equality between Copts and Muslims that simply never existed. Diplomats and members of the Egyptian government continue to utilize these same false scenarios. How does this revisionism impact Copts’ views of themselves and how most Egyptians view “the Coptic issue?”
Tadros: Copts are torn between an emphasis on their uniqueness, an appeal to national unity, and a Universalist spirit emerging in the lands to which they immigrated. Most Copts cling closely to their Church and view themselves as a separate nation, though not in political terms. They have immense pride in that identity and in its survival against overwhelming odds throughout the centuries and in spite of waves of persecution. At the same time, Egyptian nationalism and the myth of eternal harmony between Copts and Muslims provides them protection in face of an Islamist threat. Lastly in the Coptic Diaspora, some have begun to relate to a more universal Orthodox identity finding common ground with Eastern Orthodox communities.
Most Egyptians deny that there is a Coptic issue in the first place. According to them, there is no problem in the first place and the two communities live in perfect harmony with problems being the result of foreign conspiracies to divide the country or according to Islamists, the problem is actually that Copts have too much and control the country. Even those who acknowledge a Coptic problem offer only one solution: Copts should shed their identity and become Egyptians. In a sense the crisis in Egypt is that we deal with identity as if it’s a hat. You cannot wear more than one at the same time. Copts are required to give up who they are in order to be accepted in the public sphere. That is the formula Lutfi El Sayed and early Egyptian nationalists developed in the first decade of the 20th century and it continues today.
Venn Institute: One of the greatest tragedies in recent years is the decimation of religious minorities in countries like Iraq, Syria, and Egypt. Do you have an estimate on the number of Copts who have left Egypt since Mubarak was ousted and how many have had to relocate within the country? What impact does the loss of Egypt’s Copts have on the country as a whole?
Tadros: It’s impossible to offer an exact figure given the unreliability of Egyptian statics and the lack of Western statics which count immigrants according to their religion. In the absence of such exact figures we have to rely on observing Coptic churches abroad. Since the Egyptian revolution, there has been an exodus of Copts from Egypt. Some of this immigration has went to places where Copts have been immigrating for decades; the United States, Canada, Australia, while others have went to newer places such as Georgia. The growth has been horizontal and vertical. To use examples from the US, in the last year alone, the number of Coptic churches in the United States has jumped from 202 to 222. Simultaneously in a church like the one I go to in Fairfax Virginia, the number of worshipers has jumped from 3,000 to 5,000.
Given current trends we might reach a point in the not so distant future when a majority of Copts resides outside of Egypt’s borders. This will be a monumental challenge for the Church which will be required to reshape its very identity. The loss for Egypt however will be irreplaceable. Egypt has seen such an exodus before when it forced out its Jews and European minorities after Nasser took power. The loss of intellectuals, businessmen, and talented craftsmen has hugely contributed to the country’s current misery. With the Copts the loss will be even greater given their sheer numbers. Historically religious minorities have played the role of bridge between the West and the region. If the Middle East loses its rich religious mosaic it will not only lose a huge part of its heritage and past but also its future.
Venn Institute: Morsi was ousted since your book was published. Considering all that has happened during this period, what do you think are the greatest challenges facing Copts in Egypt today?
Tadros: Many of the old challenges that Copts have faced in recent years continue with us. While Islamists often play an important role in attacks on Copts, in many cases it is their ordinary neighbors who attack them. Constitutions and presidents might change, but the local hatreds are much harder to change. Attacks on Copts continue to take place in a complete security vacuum with the police failing to offer any protection. Egyptian courts have completely failed in punishing attackers creating a culture of impunity and encouragement for attackers. Blasphemy accusations continue being used as a means to frighten Copts. In the last few months we have seen a spike in kidnappings targeting Copts in Egypt’s southern governates. Islamists are also likely to continue inciting and targeting Copts.
Venn Institute: Copts have been forced to live as dhimmis for centuries in their own homeland. Can you explain what this means for Copts in everyday life and how this concept is being applied currently in Egypt?
Tadros: Dhimmitude was both a legal framework and a social status. The legal framework was enforced with different magnitudes by various rulers. We often encounter incidents of reimpossing those codes indicating a previous relaxation in their enforcement. The various rules included dress codes forcing Copts to wear cloths of specific colors, the prohibition on Copts not to ride horses, forcing them to wear heavy wooden crosses, forbidding them to wear cloths made of silk, and prohibitions on building new churches or renovating old ones. Above all that was the imposition of Jizya, a sum of money non-Muslims were required to pay. As a social status, Dhimmitude was about keeping Copts in their rightful place; as a subjected people. They were expected to accept their subjection by acting accordingly. They were required to accept the supremacy of Islam in the land and their inferiority.
Modernity brought an end to the legal framework of Dhimmitude. The Jizya was abolished in December 1855 and Copts were conscripted for the first time since the Muslim invasion in January 1856. Copts were appointed judges for the first time by Khedive Ismail as well as given equal political rights. Aspects of the social status however continue till today. We seem them reflected in local demands in villages that no church be built in their village, in requirements that bells are not rung and in continued discrimination in government appointments.
Venn Institute: The missionary efforts of Catholics and Protestants in Egypt featured as a painful part of Coptic history. Do you think the competition and division amongst Christians in Egypt has impacted religious freedom in the country?
Tadros: Missionaries came with different mindsets. Some of them like the Church Mission Society came as brothers wanting to help. They viewed the Coptic Church as a sound church that needed a hand to lift itself and they offered that hand. Others like the American Presbyterian United Mission viewed the Coptic Church as a dead church and beyond redemption and sought to take Copts away from it. This resulted in clashes and scars that remain until today. It certainly made the Coptic Church weary of foreign missionaries and helps explains the current church support for the Egyptian government’s decision not to allow Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons to practice freely in Egypt.
Venn Institute: Drawing on insights from your research for this book, what are the most important things NGOs and faith groups do to promote greater religious freedom in Egypt now?
Tadros: There are many steps that need to be taken in order for Egypt to become hospitable to the notion of religious freedom. Some of those steps require actions by the Egyptian government and NGOs and faith groups in as much as they are able to influence Western decision making should encourage Western governments to take a stand in support of religious freedom, not as a favor to Copts but ensuring that religious freedom for all exists in Egypt. Outside of lobbying action, the Coptic Church faces tremendous challenges, not just spiritual but also material. Poverty, illiteracy, and unemployment are all problems that are prevalent in Egypt and in the absence and failure of the Egyptian state, Copts rush to their Church seeking help in their material needs.
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Samuel Tadros is a Senior Fellow at Hudson Institute’s Center for Religious Freedom. At Hudson, he is researching the rise of Islamist movements in the Middle East and its implications on religious freedom and regional politics. http://www.venninstitute.org/interviews/interview-samuel-tadros